RE: Certification

[Kara Pritchard <kara@luci.org>]

This too is long. My "I walked to school in the snow uphill both ways with
no shoes" rant is also at the bottom :)

On Wed, 25 Oct 2000, Mark wrote:

> interview.  What we are seeing at my company are very poor resumes.  We
> get people in that we don't think are very qualified and start asking them
> questions and we end up saying "Damn, why isn't that on your resume?"  
> 
Absolutely Agree!

> I interviewed a student yesterday who is graduating in December.  He is
> working at a "Mental Health Tech" right now.  He doesn't have any "real
> World" experience but I liked his attitude and his personailty and I think
> he is going to be getting an offer at the weeks end, and do you know why? 
> I think he can learn our system and do something with it.  Fast learning
> is very important. 
> 
Absolutely. However, larger corporations, and businesses with high stakes
and financial responsibilities (shareholders) etc have to have everything
work out on paper. Gut instincts don't hold much ink weight when it comes
to people like that. You feel better (somewhere deep down inside) that
your person is capable of learning and being dedicated to a project
because he is graduating in December. What if that guy didn't go to
college, or had a degree from 10 years ago in agriculture?

Sometimes, having some sort of documented proof that you did something
supplies nothing more than a scapegoat for the books for these type of
companies. For instance, when your student fails (scenario) you have
nothing to blame but your gut instinct because he was a good
interview. Having proof of skill puts the responsibility of failure on the
individual because the individual claimed competancy through
certification.

> or the student who did his entire Senior project in Access.  I would hire
> the student who has done a large project that took months to complete
> rather than the person who spent 2-3 weeks in getting a certification.
> 
Sure, in that case. But Microsoft certifications hold no ink. Comparing
Microsoft to Cisco or even to Unix certifications is like apples to
oranges. You cannot group certifications. 

With a Cisco cert, for instance, that Senior project who did his senior
thesis spending months with a set of the school's 2610s does not begin to
compare with the individual who spent months preparing for the Cisco Cert
tracks and withstood the gruelling hands on environments with all the
cisco routers from 7000s to the 1600s.

In short, there are situations that fit both of our points, and there
really is no absolute comparison. So much factors in.

> I agree with your statement, but you contradict yourself.  In making that
> statement I ask that you look at a much bigger picture than you yourself
> make.  Take someone's career (including school) experiences, take into
> account what they really want to do, what they are interested in, what
> sort of challenges they are willing to take on.  No piece of paper is
> going to tell me that.  And when I go out for those Linux development
> jobs, they see how I've incorporated Linux into my professional life and
> they (for the most part offer me the job - all of the linux/unix jobs I've
> applied for have made me an offer)
> 
I don't see where I contridicted myself. So few people have the school
experience that's relevant to their career in technology. Talk is
cheap. What people say they want to do, and what they're willing to take
on, is cheap. Prove to me you want to do this, and prove to me you are
willing to take on a challenge. If you want to do something bad enough to
invest your own money and time into yourself even though your job didn't
require (or benefit) from it, then that's an interesting proof. Non MS
certifications, for the most part, are not easy, nor cheap.

You've been doing Linux/Unix stuff for at least 5 years (as that's all
that I've known you and can authoritatively say). You have a degree in
something CS related. You have had at least 5 years of job experience in
the field you're working. You are _extremely_ arrog^H^H^H^H^H self
confident ;-). Of course you should get offers from your interviews. Not
all the rest of us have that. There's nothing wrong with that.

> 
> My advice to the people who want to move into jobs which use linux -
> change your goal.  Seriously, that's like saying I want to go work at a
> company that uses Microsoft.  Figure out what you want to do first -
> networking, engineering (and then what type) and then build from that.  I
>
Bah. That's University thinking. You don't have to do just one thing. You
can do more than one thing, and you can change that one thing you want to
do. That's the beauty of computing. If you do know the one thing you want
to do, that's great, but there is not a darned thing wrong with you if you
don't. You can move in a generally forward direction with your knowledge
work experience, and salary without stressing yourself out not knowing
what exactly you want to do. 

> for a living and I love every minute of it.  Certifications don't mean
> much if an employer sees that you love what you do and are willing to work
> hard to obtain your goals.
> 
The key to your statement is that the employer has to see that you love
what you do and that you are willing to work hard to obtain your
goals. Not everyone has had the opportunities like you to prove
themselves, not everyone needs the benefits of certification. Not everyone
needs the benefits gained from prosthetic limbs either, but that doesn't
negate their value.

Most everyone here knows what I do now but, while you were in school
working doing the networks and side consulting, I was working full time in
a factory on an assembly line making oil filters on 2nd shift, and working
1/2 time at a local department store unloading the 5am trucks just to pay
my rent. On the side I fiddled with my (now) husband's LUG work and
projects. Now, less than 3.5 years later I'm 23 years old,  employed by a
local Linux company making exceptionally good money. I have no degree, nor
am I anywhere near close to getting one. I am an RHCE, I'm published, and
I contract with a number of other large publishers doing editing and
project consulting.

I, like a number of people I know on our LUG lists, had to work extremely
hard to prove to the HR people, and people like you, that I wanted to work
really hard toward my goals, and was really excited about what I was going
to do. Though I was getting wonderful job offers, and doing interesting
work before I got my certification, I had no self confidence in myself or
my skill. Certification provided me a helpful goal to become confident in
myself and my skills to work in a technical environment with Linux.

Hooked on Leenucks w3rked for me :)

-- 

Kara Pritchard                          Phone: 618-398-7360
Author, RHCE Exam Cram
Linux Evangelist                        kara@linuxgruven.com
Asst Dir for Program Development        kara@lpi.org





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