Re: What then must we do? -- Dell is only good for 400+ employee

["Bryan J. Smith" <b.j.smith@ieee.org>]

On Thu, 2004-02-05 at 19:42, Sean \The RIMBoy\ wrote:
> Well, depending on who you define as tier two then I'm having a hard time
> using them.  We've tried and they've either gone out of business, their
> hardware has not lasted as long as it should, or they've not provided the
> level of support we can get.  Granted, we're mid sized university, but at
> the same time my co-worker would love to do something other than Dell
> Frankly, I'm not convinced his complaints are of merit, but at the same
> time I'm willing to go elsewhere if they can provide what Dell gives us.

The "Microsoft game" has all the tier-1 OEMs unable to deliver Linux.

Again, Dell is the _only_ OEM where Microsoft is the #2 R&D funder,
with Intel #1.  But as we discussed, even then Microsoft still was able
to make Intel and, as a result, Dell it's bitch.

So you have to go tier-2 for Linux.

> We've done some supermicro in the past.  Spec wise they should and often 
> do blow the doors off of tier 1 systems.

SuperMicro is a _component_ OEM, _not_ a complete PC/systems OEM.  Don't
go there.  Not worth it.  You're basically providing your _own_ support.
They are basically a "tier-3/white box" vendor.

Most of the tier-2 system OEMs won't touch SuperMicro.

> On the other hand, support problems another dept has had with our
> local vendor has made me leery of the long term w/ that hardware.

> I'm curious to know who your tier 2 choices are.

I've used Aspen Systems for Linux and OpenVMS-powered Alphas years ago. 
They also sell Intel systems too.  But they can be a bit pricey. 
They've been around since 1988 though.  http://www.aspsys.com

Another option is the one Transmeta themselves go to, ASLab.  I have
quoted from them several times, but never had the opportunity to buy
from them (long story, I didn't discover them until the tech downturn). 
They give you a wide range of components to choose from *BUT* the
_extensively_test_ them for Linux compatibility, 24x7 usage, etc...
_before_ they offer them.  They've been around since 1995, and their
pricing is very competitive.  http://www.aslab.com  

There are several others.  I've had mixed experiences with Penguin
Computing, so I can't say either way.  I really see Penguin almost as a
tier-3.  Monarch Computers might be more of a component OEM as well.

I'm sure I'm missing at least one big, major tier-2 here that does
Linux well, and has for 8+ years.

> Well, we've never played them off each other for pricing.  While I agree
> that's a good strategy, at the same time I'm paid to spec systems that
> won't have issues or surprises.

The problem is that many systems _still_ do, even for Windows.

In working at smaller engineering companies, Dell is _not_ an option. 
Dell takes care of 400+ employee companies, but pisses on sub-400
employee companies -- often to the point of costing themselves money
(long story).

I prefer Micron who doesn't go 100% Intel, has their own engineering/
semiconductor arm, and likens to companies of 25+ employees.

> I can find other ways for us to save money.

Saving money is _not_ the object.

Saving time (and effort) _is_.  That's why you have to find a solid
_tier-2_ vendor for Linux.  Some of the Linux-focused tier-2 vendors,
like ASLab, give you excellent support.

Sometimes _better_ than the tier-1s.  E.g., many tier-1s get "anal" on
their "support" contracts -- like they won't support something that is
"not standard/approved" like some software package, or an attached
storage array.

I've had this issue with non-Intel hardware as well.  E.g., Sun
Microsystems.  So in the end, it saves me _time_ I'd rather buy
SPARC/Solaris systems from Fujitsu.  And they often have better designed
systems (even if they aren't as "pretty looking").

[ BIAS NOTE:  I'm personally quoted in Fujitsu PRIMEPower product/
marketing literature ]

> More often than not when we ask our specialized hardware suppliers
> who they suggest, they suggest Dell.  Cheap is good but not if you're
> going to have problems down the road.  I'd rather not have the problem of
> you're using this processor / hardware config and we think that's the
> problem game.  It may not be true in all cases, but those are gambles we
> don't want to take.

I think that's more of an issue with the _specific_ OEM and their
support approach.  If you're getting such comments out of Dell -- which
I did _extensively_ at times -- then Dell itself _is_ the problem.

Don't tolerate an OEM that makes you pay $500/system for "premium"
support only to send you off to a $10/hour "computer operator" that
gives you a "step by step procedure" for troubleshooting and responds
with "you must do this first before I can replace it" non-sense when you
try to bypass him because you've already spent the 2 hours debugging it
_before_ you called.

Dell did this to me over and over and over again.  I repeatedly asked
them to "stop the insanity" to no avail.  Then the CEO's notebook HD
went (under the aforementioned $500 "on-site, next-day" support
add-on).  After 16 hours of tech support over 1 week, unable to prove
the $100 part (HD) was defective, the CEO agreed, Dell was to be
dumped.  We had a 30 minute discussion with our Dell rep before the
decision was final (to give them a chance to explain their documented 16
"shipping fuck ups" and 13 "support issues") and even she said we should
dump their company based on their performance versus Micron.

We sent Michael Dell a letter explaining how they cost themselves not
only a customer, but their shipping to wrong addresses, shipping DOA
parts and making us bother their techs for 8-16 hours before we could
get a $100 part replaced was costing themselves money atop of that.

> Frankly, the horror stories I've heard about Micron have kept me away from
> them.  At one point I was willing to suggest them but eventually their
> quality took a turn for the worse.  Their stock was in the crapper too
> which made me question their long term availability (nothing like buying a
> system and then having them go out of business the next day).  Same with
> Gateway.  After a successive string of problems that should have never
> made it out the door we could no longer suggest purchasing hardware from
> them.

Gateway uses the _exact_same_ parts as Dell ... the _exact_.  In a
nutshell, they sell _only_ what Intel says for the "core" components,
and then what Micrsoft says they can for the non-essential stuff.

Micron does not, they use their own selections.  Quality depends on the
series.  I've seen a few Microns that were not quality selections.  But
most have been.  I do my research of the components beforehand, so I
know what will come in the Micron box.  That helps.

With Dell and Gateway, I'm SOL if Intel made a shotty product.  And yes,
it _does_ happen with select Intel mainboard/etc... products!

> I've already mentioned the issues I have with Compaq and HP.  
> I've never been impressed with IBM desktop hardware either.  That's not to 
> say that Dell's not had their share of issues, their decision to smoke the 
> Rambus crack drove us to look at other options.  

Of course.

> That brings me back to Dell.  Yes, I'd would be more than happy to get off
> the Dell pipe, but until other companies start doing what Dell does (and
> I'm not talking about including the stuff people complain about) then I
> don't forsee us using anyone else for Tier 1 anytime soon.

If you're 400+ employees, then Dell is sound.

But if you're sub-400 employees, Dell is a living hell.  If you grind
them enough, they'll admit they don't care about anyone but their 400+
employee customers.


-- 
Bryan J. Smith, E.I. -- Engineer, Technologist, School Teacher
b.j.smith@ieee.org



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