Re: I hate Linux -- Apple is leading the standards charge on the

[Mike Connor <mikec@silug.org>]

Supposedly a Mac Plus-- there was an early '90s article(s) on it-- can't 
prove it-- yeah, it doesn't sound right, but how many components are in a 
Mac Plus?

PCI was thoroughly in place by '95, '93 actually-- I was using one.  I'm 
all but completely certain that a Pentium *has* to connect to a PCI 
Northbridge (thus a PCI system), no exceptions-- if it's a Pentium, it's 
PCI.  I know that Apple had use an Endian flipping chip to put a PowerPC 
on an Intel Northbridge, so I'd say Apple came after.  I know one of the 
attractive things to Apple was cheap PCI video cards.

Yup, I agree about Steve Jobs.

I noticed the Super Computer status as well-- those supposedly have a 1GHz 
Front Side Bus compared to a max of 533MHz from Intel and probably the 
fastest FPU out there-- they should crunch and move the result very well.  
But often do you run a mostly floating point application? (games will hand 
that off to the video card)  I'll go read about the results before I say 
any more though.

On Sat, 31 Jan 2004, Sean \The RIMBoy\ wrote:

> On Sat, 31 Jan 2004, Mike Connor wrote:
> 
> > things, didn't charge $3k (in '90 money) for something that cost them
> > $30 to build (that's documented).
> 
> I'm curious to know what product(s) that is
> 
> > of the market but yet be one of the most (I think *the*) cash rich
> > computer company out there; that was true for a long time (might still
> > be).
> 
> I think they're still doing well in that dept.  I saw where the recently 
> spun off stake in one of their companies to get more cash.  That said, had 
> Steve not come back we'd probably not have this discussion.  
> 
> > ** From my casual observation, Apple doesn't adopt PC buses and
> > components until it's clear that the bus will be a standard and that the
> > public will no longer buy a $100 mouse and such.
> 
> I disagree for the most part.  The PowerMacs had PCI early on.  As early 
> as some of the PC's, no.  However Apple knew the NuBus was at it's limits 
> and going to PCI would not hurt them in the long run, it could only help.  
> Apple started doing PCI in 1995.  Yes, some 486's and Pentiums were 
> shipping with PCI by that time but it was still IMO not something everyone 
> had jumped on, at least outside of the video card industry.  On the other 
> hand, Apple need to get people hooked on their PowerMacs and making the 
> first generation w/ NuBus was about the only way they'd not have a mass 
> exodus.  Bear in mind that the Quadra 800 / 840 systems with their 68040's 
> would run circles around an early NuBus PM running 68k programs.  
> 
> Apple pushed the crap outta USB when Steve took over.  Dropping ADB and 
> going USB for the keyboard and mouse finally pushed the PC vendors to take 
> a long hard look at doing the same. 
> 
> Yes, Apple was a little behind on the AGP boat.  I was disappointed on 
> that but it looks like they've learned their lesson there.  
> 
> Apple has pushed the crap outta flat panels which in turn IMO has lowered 
> prices and put them on more people's desktops.  
> 
> Apple did a nice job of integrating the networking into their systems, as
> far back as the Quadra 800 series (I'm sure a few before that).  For
> better or for worse Apple hedged their bets... 10base2 and 10baseT were
> both popular.  As a result, Apple put their AAUI connector on the back and
> let the user buy the appropriate dongle / media adapter to finish the
> interface.  This led to some interesting media exchangers, one of my favs
> being the third party four port hub that IIRC was powered off the AAUI
> adapter.  Instant workgroup.
> 
> That said, I think Apple under Jobs has done more to keep up with the PC 
> world.  Most of the previous CEO's did poorly in that respect, mainly 
> because they could not find their way out of a cardboard box.  And I 
> suspect they had PC's on their desks.  
> 
> > ** FireWire seems to be their only bus that was adopted by the PC
> > world-- definitely the other way around on PCI and I think USB and
> > CardBus/PCMCIA (I think I saw a Mac laptop with it once).
> 
> For the most part I agree.  Firewire IMO is still the better I/O when it 
> comes to drives and video camera's.  I have a hard time grasping the 
> concept of hooking a HD to the same bus as my mouse.  Sure, they all end 
> up in the same place in the computer eventually, but I'd rather keep the 
> HID's on USB and multimedia / storage devices on firewire.  (the little 
> flash dongled are another story).  AFAIK, there are still latency problems 
> trying to do sound via USB.  I've already mentioned PCI.  Apple went full 
> boar w/ USB in 99.  A couple years late, but like I said, they pushed it 
> hard when they did.  
> 
> We've got a powerbook 1400 at the office, according to lowendmac.com it
> was built back in 96 and it has two PCMCIA slots.  I know we're using one
> of the slots because that system did not have built in ethernet (WTF?!).  
> Building 68k laptops I presume kept them out of the PCMCIA market.
> 
> > ** If you buy a laptop based on what you're seeing in the linux laptop
> > compatibility lists, you'll be fine.  True, it'll probably take a driver
> > patch here and there.
> 
> I've got a friend running Yellow Dog on his and loves it.  I'm going to 
> run YDL on my clamshell iBook when and if I upgrade my HD (ugh, 10 gigs!).
> 
> > ** I imagine if you're on this list, you'd be using the unix features of
> > OS X all the time anyway, so there's not much point in buying OS X and a
> > $2500 (for something with a screen) one button laptop to run it on.  The
> > new Apple laptops don't seem as rugged as the old ones either.
> 
> Agreed.  I suggest to anyone thinking about purchasing an Apple laptop to 
> go ahead and spend the extra money on the AppleCare.  That said, it'll be 
> a cold day in hell when you pry my clamshell outta my hands.  It may not 
> be the fastest, but it's certainly the sturdiest.  
> 
> > **  The cheapest laptop PC is ~2.5GHz+ and the top-dog Mac laptop is
> > 1.3GHz.  I have yet to see a case where a processor could make up for a
> > 100% difference in clock speed, regardless of it being
> > CISC/RISC/32bit/64bit. Actually, I've never seen a >30% difference made
> > up for; perhaps if you do broadcast grade video / extreme number
> > crunching would a 2GHz G5 catch a 32bit 3GHz+ AMD/Intel.
> 
> Well, considering the VATech cluster destroyed the Intel systems in 
> garnering number 3 in the Top500 super computers, I think that probably 
> goes a little way to answering your question.  Frankly, I was shocked at 
> how well VaTech's did.  I did not realize it until Jobs pointed it out 
> several weeks ago, but that's a lot of HP for a little bit of money, 
> especially compared to number 2 and 1.  I think most of the HPC community 
> was thinking it would be top 10, but top 5 was a little more difficult, 
> nevermind #3.   It'll be interesting to see how much business Apple gets 
> as a result, nevermind how many people think different.
> 
> Sean...
> 
> --
> The punk rock will get you if the government don't get you first.
> 	--Old 97's
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